Recent comments

Thank you for this, Ida.

Do you think there is anything inherent to vegetarian eco-feminism that makes it more likely to be transphobic than another feminism, and if so what is that? Are there any vegetarian eco-feminists you know of who are genuine transfeminists?

Thanks for making me notice this tranphobia among feminists:) It's sad for I've come to really like ecofeminism. I'm not familiar with this, but I don't have much knowledge about feminist or gender theory.

But I'm not sure if "women-born women policies" are more transphobic than separatist "women only policies" are manphobic. When they want to have an arena for only one sex/gender they have to draw the line somewere. If everyone that says they identify as women are let in, then all men might say it to, just to sneak inn.

"As humans, we do have an inherent (evolutionarily-prepared) interest in maintaining our lives over those of non-human animals"

I think this statement is rooted in speciesism. That is, it is an ideologically motivated statement used to uphold human dominance over other animals. People say the same thing to justify all kinds of oppression--we don't have to care about "those people" because they are of a different race, culture, nationality, gender, sexuality, and so on. Rather than thinking that this line of reasoning is suddenly accurate as applied to other animals, I think we need to question the accuracy of this statement.

"The oppressed individuals in this case are unable to defend or stand up for themselves."

Say what? This statement is pure speciesism. But I like that someone who practices veganism said it because it clearly illustrates the original point about how vegans are allies. That is, vegans are the oppressors. Not the oppressed.

Saying that animals are helpless and in need of "protection" is a popular justification people try to use to continue their exploitation of animals. E.g., farmers are doing animals a favor by "protecting them from predators" and animals in zoos (allegedly) live longer than their free-living counterparts and so on. Thinking that animals are helpless is speciesist.

Other animals very clearly do defend and stand up for themselves. Ropes, chains, cages, stalls, whips, bullhooks, tanks, prods, collars, leashes, reins, etc. are all evidence of animals' resistance. We wouldn't need tools of control if animals weren't constantly resisting.

I can hardly stand watching people walk their dogs because so often the dogs are clearly resisting being controlled (with varying degrees of success). Jason Hribal has an article discussing animals' resistance in the entertainment industry: When Animals Resist Their Exploitation: Kasatka, the Sea World Orca. Check out Deer fights back against hunter and a video of a deer fighting off a hunter.

But rather than listing examples here, I think the more important thing to think about is how could it be that we could think that animals aren't standing up for themselves? How does that mindset affect our activism? Here is one answer:

"vegans are speaking up for a group who have no ability to speak for themselves."

Emi Koyama has a great little piece on the danger of "speaking for" animals. I take Koyama's call for accountability very seriously, and I am interested in figuring out ways to do that.

As I just explained, animals are speaking up for themselves. And that resistance is, to me, the work that I am attempting to support with my veganism--as an ally.

Hello.

I read over the long discussion about the idea of vegan oppression. Let me first say how much I deeply respect you and everything you do for animals. I found it quite interesting and informative but I still find myself with a couple of questions. What confuses me the most is why is oppression based on people's most deeply held belief so much less offensive then oppression based on some other category? All I would add to the discussion is the question of religion. You claim that those who say that vegan are not really oppressed because they always chose not to be vegan. It seems to me that you could equally say that people being oppressed because of their religion are not "really" being oppressed because they could always change their religious faith. That argument does not make a great deal of sense to me. Oppression of deeply held ethical view is still oppression--part of the oppression is that you cannot chose to hold your most deeply held views. And veganism is my most deeply held view.

What also confuses me is how your own discussion is so filled with heartbreaking proof and examples of how much you have personally been oppressed because you are vegan. I mean losing her job? being watched by the FBI? If that is not oppression what is?

I mean I realize that you say that social oppression is different than state oppression--but that confuses me as well. I mean it seems to me that losing your job is social oppression not state oppression and most of the way that I feel oppressed as a vegan feel is because of social oppression. i.e. being made fun of, mocked, not feed etc. So if you only define oppression as social oppression it would seem to be more the case that vegan are oppressed in our society. Not to mention I am unclear on why social oppression is any worse, or a truer form of oppression, then state oppression if the two can even be so neatly divided. Personally I would rather be ostrized then put into jail for excessive prison sentence (where I would not be able eat since they do not sever vegan food in prison). Have you had a chance to read the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act?

Thank you again for all you do for animals, women, and so many others.

I respect that you took the time to write this long reply, and I can see that you have a need to see vegans as oppressed. My site is not really about debating; I put the ideas out there, and I can explain and clarify them. If you disagree, fine, but debating them is not something I'm going to invest a lot of time in because that's just not the purpose of the site.

Your second to last line says, "Now, in general I don't think most vegans are particularly oppressed in our society. " Oppression happens to social groups. We don't say that in general people of color, LGBTTQQ people, disabled people, noncitizens, poor people, women, etc. aren't oppressed. So your comment here is working in a different framework of "oppression" that is more individualistic and works on some sort of case-by-case basis. But oppression isn't simply any negative thing that happens to someone.

To clarify, a definitions that I use on The Vegan Ideal to define oppression comes from Rita Hardiman and Bailey W. Jackson in "Conceptual Foundations for Social Justice Courses":

Oppression exists when one social group, whether knowingly or unconsciously, exploits another social group for its own benefit. Social oppression is distinct from situation of simple brute force in that it is an interlocking system that involves ideological control as well as domination and control of the social institutions and resources of the society, resulting in a condition of privilege for the agent group relative to the disenfranchisement and exploitation of the target group.

Let's leave aside for a moment how you ignore that most communists and labor organizers come from the poor and working class and are in fact oppressed people struggling for social justice. Your examples, which I find problematic and inappropriate, seem to be concerned with "political repression" as opposed to social oppression. These are not the same things and shouldn't be conflated. I do not agree that "green is the new red." Nor do I see vegans being systematically rounded up, purged, detained, executed, sent to camps, etc.

Long before the Bush administration declared "war on terror," a vegan organization I organized was being monitored and was under the surveillance of the FBI. I know this because I confronted the chief of police after some people told me he was questioning them about their involvement in the group. His response was that he was required to notify the FBI of any nonhuman animal advocacy organizations. A couple years later a local journalist let me know that the local animal exploiters had bragged to him that they work closely with the FBI to keep tabs on the local nonhuman animal advocacy groups, of which mine was the only one. The actions my group organized and promoted included such disruptive actions as vegan-based speakers, screenings, tableings, leafleting, and most dangerous of all – free vegetarian cooking classes attended mostly by middle-aged housewives from the community. So I'm aware of the state sponsored political hostility to vegan organizing, but this does not mean vegans are being oppressed. And the level of political animosity is nothing like the examples of repression you're invoking.

Hey, I wrote the rest of this post, but I decided I wanted to put this question at the top: Do you think a communist can be oppressed (for being a communist, obviously, not for any other part of the vicissitudes of identity)? Because for me the answer to that is, "yes, obviously" but I am not sure you would say yes to that.

First, let me say that I respect giving up your job rather than engaging in exploitation and furthering oppression. That is an impressive call, and one I am thankful I have not had to make. But, I'm not really sure that's what I meant. I meant getting fired for your actions, often actions from outside of the workplace. To give an example, my grandfather was a white minister who participated in the civil rights movement. For his work, including going to marches, he was kicked out of his church. I'm going to come back to this point later.

Second, I am not sure your response really helped out of a terminological jumble. So, when you say oppression, you mean the target of oppression? So when you say that vegans cannot be oppressed, you don't mean that oppressive acts cannot happen to them, but that they cannot be the targets of oppression?

Third, I'm not sure where to begin my response on questions of prisons and law enforcement. So, first, I'm been a member of prison abolition and prison reform groups. Even if you just look at last month's posts on my blog, you can find me talking about prison abolition in context of animal abolition. http://criticalanimal.blogspot.com/2010/01/some-thoughts-on-abolitionism... This is why you won't see any championing of locking up Michael Vick, etc. (Indeed, this has made me think of a pretty good blog post to try and get to, hopefully tomorrow) over at my blog. Anyway, I couldn't agree more that I wish more people who proclaimed they wanted empty cages for other animals also wanted empty cages when it comes to humans, as well. However, I think just because the prisons and police are oppressive in general certainly doesn't mean they are not oppressive specifically, as well. You make this point well when you point out how disproportionate certain groups of people are in prison as opposed to other groups. So, let me state that I wasn't just talking about white vegans who are being targeted by the cops, but any and all vegans. Including, again, ones that are not even involved in property damage. Obviously there are multiple forms of oppressions that seem to target people of color who are also AR activists. But it is the AR activism is part of this multiple forms of oppression. Let me give another example. As we all know the first people to be thrown into concentration camps in Hitler's Germany were communists, political dissidents, and labor organizers. However, the first of these groups were Jewish communists, political dissidents, and labor organizers. It was the way these people were doubly targeted that made them the very first targets of the camps.

Fourth, I'd like to follow up a bit from the second point. It seems to me that your argument is that in order to be oppressed, you have to be the target of oppression. Or even a step further, you have to be the primary target of oppression. In this way there is a certain definitional tautology, allies can never be (primary targets of) oppression. Vegans are allies, ergo they cannot be oppressed. So, if I say that people are being fired for their veganism, or being harassed by cops, or given enhanced sentences, or were thrown in the camps in Nazi Germany, etc; you'd just say that the target aren't these people but rather the animals. Which, you know, is kinda true. But I don't buy your tautology. I don't think the only people oppressed are the primary targets of oppression. This is a think a necessary thing to recognize. Allies are targeted on purpose. As a way of destroying coalitions, but also as a way of purging "traitors." This isn't an accident, it isn't aiming for the oppressed and taking out an ally by mistake. It is a purposeful strategy of normalizing society. If we ignore this we ignore an important strategic element of the way power operates, and we ignore an important way coalitions are destroyed. That seems like a bad strategic mistake. I know you talk about acknowledging where the real oppression lies, but I dunno. I'm not the oppression police, and I'm not comfortable with telling someone they aren't experiencing real oppression.

Fifth, I know there are several objections that can be made to this. And I guess I should try to answer a few of them. (A) It's not as bad as other forms of oppression. True, for the most part. Not sure how useful this argument is, unless we want to start saying there isn't enough justice to go around. (B) We don't need to go around as allies and talking about "Poor is me" blah blah blah. Yeah, I think that is bad form. Let's reject that! But just because we don't want to put the oppression as allies front and center, it doesn't mean there is none there or that it needs to be denied. (C) Alliance oppression is different from other types of oppression. Yes, of course. All types of oppression, while often interlocking, are different from each other. (D) Allies can just stop being allies and walk away from all of this. I dunno, that seems pretty obviously a type of oppression. Because while there are privileges I get for my various identity positions, there are also all sorts joys and pleasures we get from our coalitional work, and our work for justice. There is a plenitude out there and a celebration that we get to be a part of. There are certain types of people who can figure out how to be in normalizing society without raising red flags, even though they belong to an oppressed group. We know that forcing people is a type of oppression. If we walk away from our veganism we don't just hurt other animals, we hurt ourselves. Now I understand other animals are in a way worse position than me being not a vegan, but that doesn't change the oppression there.

Lastly, I understand there are some problems you are trying to address with your post. Among other things, the issue of what Elisabeth Spelman and Maria Lugones have called boomerang perception. That the seer, while offering what seems to be a benevolent action is really engaging in an arrogant action. They are, in short, positing themselves as the original and true, and therefore turning the other into the fake and copy. I know there is a fear that if we let otherwise privileged vegans talk about their oppression, they will arrogantly claim to understand the oppression of others. And worse yet, justify a single-issue, single-focus around the animal rights movement. We got to fight that, without a doubt. We got enough of that in this AR movement as it is. But, I don't think that means there isn't an organized oppression that allies suffer, and that vegans as allies also suffer this. I think denying this has its own pitfalls. Strategically and collectively.
Now, in general I don't think most vegans are particularly oppressed in our society. But it can and does happen, and I think we need to admit that, as well.

I take your point well. But I think there is something missing, some feeling of an explanation of what you mean by the term oppression.
I think you are right that being a vegan means we are in the place of an ally, but allies are frequently systematically targeted. They certainly have more privilege than the group they are allied to, but certainly less privilege than non-allies. Part of this is giving up privilege in purposeful ways. But part of this being targeted because of our alliances. Losing your job sounds like oppression to me. Being targeted by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies as terrorists, sometimes for being nothing more than a vocal vegan, sounds like oppression to me. I think when the Nazis rounded up vegetarian leaders and put them in concentration camps, while shutting down vegetarian magazines and making the vegetarian societies illegal, that counts as oppression.

Am I being clear? I think you overstate your case, but that might be because of a certain confusion with the term oppression. But allies are certainly targets. I'm not sure it does a lot of good to ignore that violence, either.

I recently made a similar comment on another blog, but I will repeat the main idea here. I think what people sometimes forget is that the animal agriculture industry is not only cruel to nonhuman animals. In fact, many slaughterhouse workers, unable to find other employment, are forced to quickly, and therefore unsafely, torture and murder animals, regardless of their personal beliefs. They are frequently left not only with debilitating physical problems, both from acute and chronic work-related injuries, but struggling with feelings of anxiety and depression, as well. In short, although advocating for the abolition of animal agribusiness (let's not forget the business...) may not focus exclusively on upholding the rights of human animals, it mostly certainly contributes to reducing their exploitation as well.

Mary Daly is dead. Max Planck's famous quote applies equally well to social truths: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Lots of people (e.g., Carol J. Adams) are celebrating Daly's legacy without acknowledging the real harm that her legacy is continuing to cause. Queen Emily explains the problem over at Questioning Transphobia: The legacies of trans-exclusive feminism (aka why are you angry).

I see a lit of classism in activists too. At the last fur protest I went to a man was heckling us. He was probably mentally ill and he was Arican American. Some of the protesters started yelling at him to gi back uptown and smoke crack. This really horrified me as it was so blatantly racist and classist. I really regret not calling them on it.

Yikes. This kind of classism has been sticking out at me a lot more recently. I read "The Vegan Shoe Lady's" post, and this stuck out at me, too: "Everyone loves to write off a 'freak' or 'extremist', but no one likes being shamed or snickered at by someone they assume is in the majority." I remember getting this advice frequently at Vegan Outreach, and it always felt uncomfortable to me.

I'm visiting my parents for winter break now, and my relatives keep talking about "those kinds of people" or something, and it's upsetting to me. It's difficult to do anything about it, too, because they tend to ignore me based on my being younger.. Thanks for this post.